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Are you born or do you become Greek?

Tuesday 9 February 2010, by Nicolas Mottas

Walking on Thessaloniki’s Aristotelous square some leaflets draw my attention. "You are born Greek, you don’t become Greek" was the slogan on them, while they were calling people to condemn the government’s proposal for granting Greek citizenship to immigrants. A few meters away, on the wall, you could clearly see the graffiti-written message "Solidarity to all immigrants". These two completely different approaches give the notion of a nation divided in two parts. Why?

A recent law proposal of the government that aspires to grant citizenship to second-generation immigrants who are born in Greece raised a storm of arguments. Although notoriously hospitable people, the Greeks still treat the immigration issues with great wariness.

In an opinion-poll conducted for Mega Channel during January, 64.9 percent of the participants responded positively to the perspective of granting citizenship to immigrants’ children; however, 49.6 percent said "No" to the citizenship for migrants who legally reside in the country during the last five years.

Apparently, the absence of a serious, well-structured, immigration policy consists an issue of high concern. The country is, for almost two decades now, exposed to uncontrollable illegal migration due to its extended borders. As columnist Stavros Ligeros points out in Kathimerini, "their (immigrants) number is continually increasing and as a result of this they live in ghettos, usually under terrible conditions". It becomes clear that the state has to develop an immigration policy in order to safeguard the country’s borders and, secondly, to create a legal framework for the best possible integration of the legal immigrants in Greek society.

Until now, the existence of a frightfully bureaucratic state system has failed to establish the needed circumstances for the gradual integration of these people into society. Nonetheless, it is known that non-integration means more ghettos and therefore social exclusion. Many Greeks who arrived as migrants in Australia, the United States or Germany in the middle of the previous century certainly understand what it means to be socially excluded. On that point, the scare mongering rhetoric of the far-right comes to exploit every available fear. The country’s present unstable economic condition, the rising unemployment levels and the occasional increase of crime rates usually become a political "tool" in the hands of the extreme, xenophobic, voices.

But, actually, this rhetoric is the curtain of some vicious obsessions. The true reasons behind xenophobia is neither the fear for jobs nor for security. Undoubtedly, the most dangerous ideas derive from the so-called "law of blood". Given the fact that Greece is one of Europe’s least ethnically diverse countries (almost 96 percent of the inhabitants claim Greek ethnicity and Greek Christian Orthodox religion), the extreme speculators try to create the fear of lost homogeneity.

Surprisingly, they want to ignore that the essence of Greekness doesn’t exist in race, blood or religion but in the so-called Hellenic education and Hellenism’s admirable capacity to assimilate foreign cultures. It was the great ancient orator, Isocrates, who praised the intellectual achievements of Athens noting that the title of being Hellene became "a badge of education rather than of common descent".

Indeed, there are second-generation immigrants who know no other country but Greece. There are people with African or Asian backgrounds who deserve, more than many indigenous, the title of being Greek. They pose no threat to Greek identity but, on the contrary, they enrich its Ecumenical essence. It’s an issue of legitimacy and, moreover, humanity. The Greek political leadership has a historical responsibility to deal with this matter with wisdom and an open mind.

P.S.

Published in Neos Kosmos English Edition; February 9, 2010.

84 Forum messages

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 9 February 14:47, by Nero

    You are Greek because you share the same DNA i.e., Greek tribes from ancient times. Passed on generation after generation.
    Greeks are a distinct people and an indigenous people.
    Just as the Chinese, African, Indian, Slavic, Native Americans, Aboriginals in Australia - a distinct people.
    Being able to speak a language or dance around a circle or putting a slouvaki on a barbecue doesn’t make you Greek. Nor does being born in Greece [ask yourself this: If you were born on a raft in the middle of the Pacific ocean do you automatically get citizenship as a Pacifician or Raftician? I guess there are no economic benefits of getting a Pacifician or Raftician citizenship...so your in limbo right?]

    To call someone Greek who is not Greek is an insult to me. As a Greek you can not earn or buy this right or decide to hitch and squat in Greece or marry into a Greek family or start calling yourself Greek. You are Greek because of your ancestors that resided in Greek lands for thousands of years and share the same genetic material. You share the same language and culture because you communicated and socialized with those of the same background. You had a common background with the foundation being that you were from the Greek tribes (remember there were a lot more than just your Spartans and Athenians).

    There is a BIG difference between Hellenism and being ethnic Greek.
    You can be Hellenic but not Greek just as the Egyptians of ancient times - falling under Hellenic rule/culture influence but were NOT ethnically Greek.
    If you marry someone who is not ethnically Greek your offspring are not Greek but are for example Greek-Italian. No matter whatever piece of paper the Greek government issues your offspring are still Greek-Italian and have taken the genetic background of their respective ethnic groups.

    PASOK and the KKE (and the other left of left groups) see a golden opportunity of selling Greek citizenship so that they can add to an electoral vote and gain political power. There is no reason for issuing any form of citizenship to non-ethnic Greeks, than other to change the demographic and cultural make-up of Greece. Greece is not the US or UK or Canada. There are numerous reasons that the US UK Canada enacted their policies of immigration and naturalization etc, which are well documented for those who wish to read up on this area.

    Let us be very clear to PASOK/KKE/the Non-Governmental Organizations that are pushing for this wholesale destruction of who is Greek.
    Guess what? Being Greek is not for sale or to be given out like candies.
    No matter what the Greek government passes as law ... these non-Greeks will never ever be GREEK!

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 09:45, by Ellinas

      Dear Nero

      Your short sighted concept of ethnicity is puzzling to me. The idea that one is only Greek by some backwards idea of DNA or as your reference "descending for the Greek tribes" of old, clearly demonstrates your lack of education. The geographic position of Greece as a crossroads of East and West has meant that many different ethnicities inhabited the region. Moreover, early ancient Greek tribal society consisted of groups who were ethnically distinct from one another. Later history demonstrates that Persian, Ottoman, Slavic , Roman and many more people have arrived in Greece and settled mixing with its culture and "DNA". To deny this would be to deny the understood history of the last few thousand years. Furthermore the Modern Greek state was built on the basis of Greek Nationality, which had never truly existed. The Byzantine Empire comprised of many different ethnic groups, all-mixing, yet with the prevailing Greek culture and language. Yet the Byzantine empire was a universal empire, meaning that ethnicity was never considered, this ideology descending from its Ancient Roman-Greco past. Even Ancient Greeks understood that what made an individual distinct occurred after her was born , no matter what nationality his parents descended from. Being Greek meant being educated, open minded , forward thinking and with the ability to improve oneself. Most modern Greeks fail this criterion. This comes down essentially to a definition of what it means to be Greek in our modern understanding of the word. The extreme right will argue that Greek is a religious, linguistic and ethnic heritage that only people residing in the boarders of modern Greece are entitled to. Yet in Ancient times Greeks had colonized a vast amount of the Mediterranean, therefore are all Mediterranean’s Greek? The question that is asked to Greeks today is an Ancient one. Hellenism is a way of thinking, a way of life, questioning your surroundings, examining your environment, and a lifelong attempt to better yourself. Any other criterion is backwards and therefore not Greek. Nero , perhaps you should be asking yourself , am I really Greek? or perhaps a better question is , why am I Greek? It is difficult for those who have been born in the modern nation of Greece, which was forged on unanimity of identity in order to build a state. The future will be difficult and will demonstrate to ourselves and the world whether we still are worthy of the Hellenic title, but there is hope: " the greater the difficulty, the more the glory in surmounting it". - Epicurus

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      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 11 February 08:43, by Nero

        It did not take long for the left wing revisionist to crawl out from under the rocks.
        You are obviously a student of sub standard education.
        There were Greek tribes and your attempt to dilute their existence over the thousands of years because of occupation is faulty logic to say the least. You make it appear (your left wing logic) that there was a systematic breeding program by these conquers or travelers/traders (movement of people is not the same as today and that is a fact)...well that did not happen. Invaders were not met with open arms. Invaders raped, pillaged and enslaved (Turks and their Janissaries ... read up about that subject and learn about the occupation of Greece and other countries). Invaders occupied territories but not all areas of Greece. It is written often when invaders were seen approaching the non-combatants fled the reasons are obvious if you are an educated individual. They didn’t stick around as the rules of war were not the same as today. You make it sound like the whole of Greece was covered with Romans/Turks/Slavs, well that is an absolute lie and disinformation. It is obvious you wish to distort history to suit your ideology. What a sad individual you are.
        I deal with facts and you can do your own research as I don’t have time to sit here and quote and cite every notation from history and medical books/journals (make sure to look at a variety of sources and don’t rely on quotes that can put the meaning out of context).
        You are Greek by DNA ... plain and simple.
        If it runs against your political ideology too bad.

        Reply to this message

        • I recently spoke to ethnic Greeks and heard terrible stories...the situation is awful... Immigrants, not all, but most, speak terrible, broken greek. Local greeks are being robbed, killed, raped. The media is not reporting the situation as it really is. And the government wants to grant citizenship to migrants living there for a mere 5 years?????? Too easy - it is absolutely wrong. They should at least live and work in Greece for 15 years and pay taxes.. To be Greek, you must be BORN Greek. Period. At least one of your parent’s should be Greek...Guys, its not like being Canadian or American, or Australian... Its different. and citizenship should not just be given away like that. It should be EARNED. They plan to kill the Greek language, religion...build mosques...and soon the radicals who are writing i arabic on the walls will have citizenship...it MUST be stopped.

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      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 11 February 08:58, by Nero

        Greeks colonized the Mediterranean.
        What happened to the first attempt by Greeks to colonize present day Sicily?
        Obvious you didn’t read history.
        You make it sound like millions of Greeks scattered across the Mediterranean and colonized the lands. Not true.
        There is a difference between being Greek and being Hellenic in ancient times.
        Egyptians who were occupied by the Alexander the Great et al considered themselves Hellenic but they DID NOT call themselves GREEK - Fact.
        You are simply lacking knowledge on Greek history or any history. I once again blame it on the problem of political ideologies infiltrating and distorting history to suit their political agenda.
        I look at history from a clinical perspective maybe you should too.

        Reply to this message

      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 15 February 01:02, by THOMAS

        GO BACK TO SKOPIA WITH YOUR HIDDEN AGENDA

        YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT NERO .LETS NOT GIVE THESE LEFT WING LUNATICS WITH THEIR FAIRY TALES A CHANCE TO DISTORT AND USURP OUR HISTORY - BECAUSE THEY HAVE NONE

        ZHTO ELLADA -

        Reply to this message

      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 4 March 05:37, by OMG

        ...Obviously this meant that the ancient greeks never expanded their empire (it never crossed Alexander the Great’s mind for example) all to the end of remaining a pure race. Thankfully all "races" seem to have taken this precaution too. Which naturally follows from the fact that the ancient civializations never interacted with each other in the slightest bit. They all had their completety unique gods and never colonised another nation. They were never any "mixed" (non-Greek ofcourse) offspring until 2010.

        On a more serious note, I cannot believe that it is opinions like yours who are causing the misery of people living in your own country. People who have every right to be treated equally. Even if "race" existed, which biologically it has no basis whatsoever, why are you denying other people their rights? Im not sure I get it. So that you can be happy by calling yourself greek and saying other people aren’t?
        ..

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 18:37, by Apocourastos

      >> "well documented for those who wish to read up on this area"

      It sounds to me like you have no clue of what you speak of. If you did, you’d site sources and offer evidence to support your argument.

      In any case, I am a proud Greek and your assertion is an afront to me and what I have come to identify with as a Greek. Tell me... Where is your DNA evidence? I will assert that after 400 years of Ottoman rule and another 1500 years of "Mpate skyloi aleste kai alestika mu dwsetai," you’re as much related to the ancient Greeks as the Italians are related to the ancient Romans. They don’t claim anything closer than a remote kinship with their predecessors, but we are special, right? After all, the world owes us in the civilization department. Our problem file Nero is that we still live in the past and expect the world to lay out the red carpet for us into the future.

      You must have missed the author’s sentence that stated, "It was the great ancient orator, Isocrates, who praised the intellectual achievements of Athens noting that the title of being Hellene became ’a badge of education rather than of common descent.’ Or perhaps you did not understand it. It’s not conceivable that you would contradict or second-guess Isocrates, so it must be that you did not understand the statement.

      Xenophobes and nationalists are not in the future of Greece. It’s that mentality that has kept our country a backward banana republic. The only saving grace is that there are other banana republics in worse shape than us.

      I’ll be impressed when you can personally trace your lineage to an ancient. Until then, you’re no different from any other redneck nationalist at my end of the world.

      Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 11 February 15:29, by Rossy P

      Its all greek to me!

      Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 13 February 20:53, by Tsakonas

      The idea of Hellenism in ancient times was less about genetics than it was about language, culture, the gods. Genetics research has shown that modern Greek people as well as the ancients were made up from many many peoples. From Nordic to Arabic. The Dorians had some Nordic traits and today you find people like my uncle from Sparti with blue eyes and light brown hair. Crete also has locals like this, as they were settles by Dorians too.

      The real issue is that SE Europe is very depressed and Greece is being overrun by illegals willing to work for less at a time when the economy is tanking. This is creating a similar degradation of salary like what we saw in the US when the Mexicans invaded and took all the construction jobs. Many jobs pay less today than they did a decade ago.

      The last point was illustrated well in a familiar movie. There are two kinds of people, Greeks and those who wish they were Greek. Can you blame them?

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 10:53, by Nikos Arvanitis

      You sir are delusional. Did you forget the massive Albanian (Arvanite population?) Or the Vlachs, or the Slavs or the Turks and Kurds from 1923, Karamnlides for example. Greek meant an Orthodox, that’s it.

      ""It must be confessed that, though the Greeks showed more energy than any other Christian race, those who now remain in Turkey (except the islanders) are not remarkable for physical vigour or military capacity. This, is no doubt, partly due to the fact that the people who revolted against Mahmud were largely Hellenized Vlachs and Albanians, who, under the modern system would not be regarded as Greeks. Nowadays the robust agricultural population is rarely Hellenic in its sympathies, for, as already mentioned, there are comparatively few parts where it is really Greek.""

      "So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the 14-15th century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the 18th century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.""

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 4 March 05:31, by OMG

      Yes that’s right don’t give rights to people living in your own own country even if they were born in it, all they’ve ever known is Greece and only speak Greek. They get no benefits if they’re unemployed or looking for a job and aren’t allowed to leave Greece. So basically don’t allow they to have any identity and just treat them as second class sub-human species without the basic human rights you take for granted.

      Thankfully our DNA has remained pure and completely separate from other "races". Since ancient times the greeks had clearly marked the borders of their state(s) and no one ever intermarried or had a relationship with someone from another group...

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 4 March 05:38, by OMG

      ... arent’? Your views are based on two things a misplaced sense of patriotism and fear. Nobody is asking you to give up the first so why are you denying others of living decently. As for the second I hope one day you’ll come round to the fact that all people are much more alike than different.

      And as far as being a raftician if your born on a raft and lived all your life there, I think that’s what being a raftician is all about. So I guess being greek to you is all about DNA. Interesting. Someone with "greek DNA" may not even speak a word of greek or know anything about greek culture or live in Greece. What do you say to that? World War 2 happened because of people with ideas like yours.

      ...

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 4 March 05:46, by OMG

      Dear admin,
      How come I can’t write a message with more that 1000 characters when other people seem to have.
      Thank you,
      OMG

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 9 February 20:44, by themistoklis

    the greek mentality is what has kept ELLAS backward for years n the church is the biggest culprit

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 08:08, by Greek

      The biggest culprit keeping Greeks behind is NOT the Church.
      There is nothing stopping you from doing what you want in Greece. The Church cannot stop you from doing anything so the excuse that they are the problem is absolutely rubbish!!
      The left wing and their policies have caused more damage than any other party in Greece (from the "Macedonia" Commintern actions that resonate today with FYROM to the Greek Civil War, kidnapping of children and the present day burning and rioting and supporting the wholesale issuance of citizenship to anyone who decides to come to Greece). The right wing are not free of scandal or negative actions case in point the CIA backed dictatorship.
      All the parties are an absolute disgrace all looking to stuff their pockets and their friends pockets with money.
      Time to vote in some honest people who don’t answer to FOREIGN influences and can undertake positive actions to build Greece. Greece does not need the ideological experiments that have only caused Greek blood to be split. Greece created democracy and Greek people have the ability to create more and can do so without FOREIGN influence or interference.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 00:01, by George G

    Dear Nicolas

    I am not sure I agree with what you are saying. Nearly all immigrants that have come to Greece have come there illegally. Do we reward illegal immigrants with citizenship? On another survey which was reported by ekathimerini 6 out of 10 Greeks do not want them in.The 2001 Greek Census reported 10.9 million people of which 800.000 were (non Greeks) The situation now nearly 10 years later means 10% of Greece’s popualtion is foreign. Greece needs to deport recent arrivals upon setting foot on Greek soil. I also question whether Moslem immigrants really blend well into Greek society? There are plenty of examples of this in Germany with the Turksih community. If Greece really needs immigrants there are still several hundred thousand Greeks still left over in the former soviet republics which should be given first option.I do admit Albanians fit in better than Moslems.

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 13:25, by Nicolas Mottas

      Dear George,

      you ask: "Do we reward illegal immigrants with citizenship?". The answer is "No". Nobody rewards anything without specific requirements and prerequisites. According to the last edition of the law proposal, the Greek state will grant citizenship to children who are born in Greece and whose parents live legally in the country for at least five years. Everyone who is born in a country’s territory has the right to acquire its citizenship, to be a full citizen with rights and duties. I guess we all agree on that.

      The law proposal of Minister Ragousis doesn’t grant citizenship to immigrants without prerequisites. There are specific rules: They have to live in the country at least five years, they must have adequate knowledge of the Greek language and, moreover, a good knowledge and understanding of Greek history. The decisions will be made by relevant enfranchisement Committees. Obviously, people who are convicted for crimes won’t be given citizenship.

      And something else for the political rights. The right-wing propaganda about the supposed creation of "radical muslim political parties" is, at least, ungrounded. According to the Ministry of Interior, the number of immigrants who will be eligible of voting (and thus taking part in the elections) is approximately 270,000 people, around 0.70% of the entire population. So, lets be serious when talking about such important issues.

      Reply to this message

    • The Greek government’s plan to grant citizenship so easily to migrants must be stopped. It is insane, and will serve the plan to destroy Greece as we know it. It only takes 20 years to change a culture. So, this is in line with the Elite’s plan to change greek culture. Ethnic greeks share common ancestry, heritage and greek orthodox faith. The Greeks have accomplished much and Greek pride has been strong for years. How can one destroy another countries culture? Just as the government is planning to do today. Stop the Greek parade on March 25, so that people forget what our grandparents and parents went through with the Turks to fight for their country and very existence. Grant citizenship to illegal immigrants and their children who do not care about Greece’s past. Destroy Greek culture. Grant citizenship to muslims and destroy the orthodox faith. It is happening before our eyes, and most Greeks in Greece do not realize this.

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 07:50, by Greek

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...

    Read this article about the TRUTH about the UK and what is happening to Greece by the traitors and anti-Greek leaders...

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 08:11, by Greek

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...

    Please read the Article from the Daily Mail exposing the Labour party and their actions regarding Mass Migration ie. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

    This is the truth and the actions of PASOK/Left are the same!

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 10:54, by Ioannis

    Mr Mottas, Im am sorry but you are either naive or a liar. Greece with a dismally low birth rate, the lowest in Europe by many accounts, will be engulfed by non Greek tribes within a few decades.

    You seriously believe that Africans living in Greece will have the same reverence for ancient Greek history that Greeks do? You think they will cherish our insitutions like the Greek church? Do you think the dates 28 October and 25 March will have any visceral meaning for them? Or do you think muslims can represent, in the future, what we believe to be Greek today?

    Or do you think it is more likely newcomers, once their numbers are large enough, will begin to demand Greece change to accomodate them. The evidence is clear, look at any immigrant nation, UK, Canada, Australia etc. Those societies have lost the essence of what they were and are now obssessed with accomodation of foreign beliefs and customs to the detriment of the original tribe.

    I use the word tribe because the true reason for promoting immigration into Greece is to break the Greek tribe. The Greek tribe ensured the survival of the Greek conciousness for centuries, it acted as the beacon to which Greeks born into it could look to for support, whether moral, spiritiual and in some cases actual.

    The tribe also acted as a barrier to the plans of the big powers.

    Breaking the tribe will ensure Greece is easily controlled and assimilated into the greater European nation that the EU is trying to create. The great Euro powers have tried for centuries to homogenise and rule Europe as one nation. They finally realised they could not do it with the sword and now they are doing it with the Euro or Dollar along with the help of useful idiots on the left that cannot seperate their devotion to ideology from the best interests of their tribe and its existence.

    It saddens me that Greeks like you value our culture so little that the individual rights of foreigners illicit higher regard for you than the preservation of a tribe that has existed for over 5000 years.

    The Blood of thousands of our ancestors was spilled to preserve our tribe!!!

    Im sorry, but I believe you are BORN Greek and I will always believe this. Otherwise, if we follow your leftist philosophy, Greece in the context of Europe in 200 years will be no different than Louisiana is today in the context of the USA...just another province/state with some local quirks.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 11:47, by Doctor R

    Nero’s assertion that being a Greek is based on one’s DNA is an example of anthropologic nonsense when one considers the fact that throughout history, Greeks came from more than just the "ancient Greek tribes" he mentions. Contributions to the supposed and identifiable Greek DNA were made by humans from as far afield as the outreaches of Asia Minor, the Caucasus, and Africa to mention a few. Evidence of this is suggested by the genetic similarity between Sickle Cell Anemia found in Africa and Thalassemia, prevalent among Greeks and other Mediterranean people, both belonging to the same family of anemias----which presupposes the mixing of bloods having taken place at some point in time.

    The Edith Hamiltons of this world , and others proud to have been called Greek even though not linked supposedly by DNA, would consider it an affront were Nero’s definition widely believed.

    Dr. R

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  • Are you Aryan or do you become Aryan? 10 February 12:14, by George Picoulas

    Those who argue that blood, DNA, or genetics in general provide a person with a "memory" or certain mindset of Greekness are, at the very least, uninformed.

    An accident of birth (being born in a particular family & place) is the greatest factor of influencing a person’s character and belief system. You are told & taught certain culture and why you’re different from others. You come with a blank mind when you’re born. It is your mind, (isn’t it?) that affects your advanced human functions.

    Anyone here placed in a different setting at birth would be a different person today. Your blood, DNA, whatever wouldn’t matter a bit. The black kid with a Greek flad in the picture is an example of this. I’ve lived in countries with different ethnic groups. For example, in the US, most Greeks of the third generation are more American than many others of older generations. What does this tell you?

    It is the conscious mind, the free choice, the values adopted, and the chosen behavior that make a person who he/she is. This is clearly found in recent Greek history....if you care to study the Greek War of Independence outside the simplistic and rather incomplete popular version. There you can find how and why Philhellenes (like Lord Byron) did what they did, and also many Greeks that collaborated with the Ottomans.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 17:21, by Tzon

    Pai H Ellas.

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 14 February 22:06, by Former officer of the greek army.

      Greece is finished.......
      Greece became a melting pot....just like the U.S....
      Shame on you greek politicians.....
      All foreigners must go back to their own land.....
      Greece ONLY for Greeks.......

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 18:50, by Chile

    The point that I want to make is that being Greek does not simply mean holding a citizenship in that country...yes u are a greek citizen but u r not Greek. If a german sheppard is born in the USA, is he American?..no he is still a german sheppard. Greek to me means that u have something special in your blood that brings out the passion in you. DO NOT allow others to tell you that Greece is a mixed population and no one is fully Greek. These people are the ones who for many years now try to kill the Greekness out there for many reasons such as jealousy and threat of a united people just like the jews are. If greeks ever unite to that level, Greeks will become powerful once again.

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 18:58, by George G

    Dear Mr Mottas

    I understand that the first wave of immigrants into Greece in the early 1990’s mainly Albanians brought their wives over and children were born in Greece and I agree that these people should be offerd citizenship as a large percentage have Greek ancestry (Northern Epirus) What I do not understand is Greece signed a bilateral agreement with Turkey in 2003 to stop the flow of illegal immigrants coming to Greece. Since 2003 there are still tens of thousands of illegal African and Asians (mainly Muslims) in Athens. These people should have been deported.

    One has to understand that most Greeks do not want these people in and Turkish PM Erdogan has recently called for a Mosque to be built in Athens,in other words rewarding illegal entry. If Greece needs immigrants there are several hundred thousand Greeks in the former Soviet Republics that could fill the void.

    And finally if you and I entered Saudi Arabia or Pakistan illegally would their authorities grant us citizenship and a church to be build in their city centres?

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 10 February 21:18, by Kostas from Canada

    I would congratulate Mr.Mottas on his shrewd choice of topics. No matter what your argument is in favor or opposed it will always be one of logic versus emotion. Think about it?

    The central question is whether legal immigrants should have the political right to Greek citizenship if they meet certain man-made(political)criteria. The answer seems to be Yes. The question then becomes if such immigration changes the definition of Greece from a homogenous society into a multicultural one, then is this desirable to present day Greeks to include leftist, rightist and all extremes? And if so will future Greek generations regret to no avail because multicultural Greece will then not be reversible. This is not Xenophobia, it is reality outside of Greece in other countries.

    After all the assumptions, defining a Greek should not be so difficult. We can scan 3000 years of history and we will still have no agreement. Ethnic Greeks have existed since B.C. Modern Greece has existed for less than 200 years. By virtue of the fact that you and I are Geeek means what? Aside with all the flowery philosophy it means that all through the ages those who ended up Greek in 1829 were the survivors of two thousand years of war, strife, intimidation, forced conversion, murder and injustice. Their forebearers were those as Athanasios Diakos was, "I was born a Greek and a Greek I will die". It is not easy to now ask the survivors of such a race to accept erasure of the emotional beliefs that have brought the Greek race, even with some new ingredients along the way, to existance today. Greeks today understand that our forebearers have scarificed too much, more than many or most other races to simply deny our senses and put this aside.

    How many Greeks born and living in Canada like myself hold conversations where they refer to all non-Greeks as "xenoi" even though Greeks are the xenoi in Canada. I do not beleive any other ethnic group in Canada refers to Canadians in this manner.

    The difficulty lies in the fact that being Greek means more to Greeks than being such and such means to others. Before any of you start rubbing your hands together in preparation of accusing me of racism ask yourself this, "is it not possible to belong to an ethnic group and harbor such a high level of pride while accepting and embracing other peoples"? Yes it is and this is why so many Greeks feel so passionate about who can buy a membership into the exclusive Greek club.

    Multiculturalism by its very nature is "anti-culturalism". In reference to the U.K., Canada the U.S.A. the promotion of multiculturalism changes the host country because accomodations must be made to allow for political correctness to keep the peace and simultaneously the various cultures become diluted. Each and every one with no exception. This has resulted in the American "melting pot", the Canadian brand of multiculturalism etc.
    Throughout the ages the ethnic Greek group where ever it resided usually lost members. The survivors survived because they where Greek and now modern Greeks are being asked to brush aside a belief system which preserved the Greek "nation"for over 2000 years by the stroke of one pen. Let’s face it people, this would be much easier if they were not Greek but ______ instead. (pick your choice). The new immigrants in Greece have not paid their "dues" in Greeks eyes, nor will they ever be able to. Even if accepted they will be Greek citizens on paper because they do not feel the emotional consequences of having a Greek past.

    The Greek flag has a cross on it for a reason. Whether we like it or not it is discriminatory. If in the future a sizable anti-Christian minority in Greece takes it to the U.N. Human Rights Commission as being unacceptable then what? Does this mean that the Greek people and its government, if Greek at the time, is racist? So if the cross needs to come off in the name of political correctness and a peacfull society then what do they put, a souvlaki stick with a little piece of bread?

    Here’s the deal:
    1) Expell all illegal immigrants from Greece immediately.
    2) Allow the legal or "economic" immigrants to live and work in Greece as guests.
    3) Pay for their children to acquire citizenship status from the country of their parents origin through their embassies in Greece.

    Greece is not obligated to legally extend citizenship, citizenship is a privilege.

    This issue is so emotional that it should be decided by referendum. That way the results can be accepted by all Greeks, for or against, democratically.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 11 February 18:22, by Nick

    This is the problem with theory and its practical application. Theoretically citizenship etc is good. But in Greece’s case its practical application could be disastrous. First of all - legalising illegal immigrants sets a dangerous precedent - and will open the flood gates (believe me similar situations have occured in Australia). Secondly - what you will find - is that Greece will give up her cutlure so as not to offend while the migrants stregthen theres. Any debate will be shot down by cries of racism. The problems will be ingored - then get worse. Crime will escalate. Australia was found to be the 2nd best nation in the world in terms of equality and equal opportunity to migrants (after Canada). This policy has failed as mirgrants from certain parts of the world have formed ghettos, and manipulated welfare benefits. Drugs and violence are rife. The problem is - while you have the best intentions - they do not share your philosophy. They will take and manipulate what it has to offer. And if you want to see a real world application of what certain Greek Leaders are preaching now. I onvite you to come to Sydney and see the disastrous results 3 decades on of such policies.

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 11 February 20:13, by Apocourastos

    Whenever I watch Greek TV, every sentence is full of foreign words. I suppose it’s "kewl" to use badly pronounced english when you are Greek, speaking greek. It impresses those who stick to greek. I guess there is not greek word for "wow, meeting, moratorium, and countless other english words." Even TV presenters and reporters sound like illiterates with their bad pronounciation.

    ... And you people are afraid that immigrants and FYROMians will take away your identity? You’ve already lost it though that greek affliction called "xenomania."

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 12 February 09:53, by Ioannis

      Apocourastos

      The idiots on Greek TV may very well fit into your description of xenomania, they are nothing but selfish pawns supported by the governing elite to further their plans of diluting the Greek consciousness. They are all sellouts and traitors in my mind.

      They do not however, represent the majority of the people who identify as Hellenes.

      I would also like to point out that Greek TV, although damaging, is causing nowhere near the damage the Greek educational system is. Diminishing the study of our glorious ancient and byzantine past and replacing it with the study of Jewish suffering in WW2 or the recent push to teach immigrant children in Greek schools the mother tongues of their parents serves to devalue our culture and its contributions to humanity in the minds of our youth.

      How many books on ancient Greece have been published by Greek professors and scholars in the past 20 years? Not many...if we want to learn about our glorious past, we have to read translated works of foreign authors.

      Shameful.

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 12 February 11:36, by Giannis

    The author who wrote the article obviously has leftist views. To say that their is no such thing as an ethnic Greek is complete nonsense. To say that a Greek is one that can assimilate in foreign cultures is an insult to all our Greek ancestors and todays proud Greeks which are many. You just exposed your political views with this article. How much did they pay you or donate to you to write this kind of garbage? Was it the rainbow party, the Turkish lobby, Syriza or KKE. Maybe it was George Sorros himself? Id like to see my comment on here and not taken off.

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 12 February 14:19, by Sophia

    I’d like tο give my sincere congrats to Nicolas for this inspiring article! Bravo! The Greek spirit of hospitality has no relation with racism and hate against migrants, especially children. The Greek nation was always a nation of refugees - from Pontos to the 1922 Smyrna’s disaster and to the immigration wave towards the US and Germany. Its a shame for all those people who, in the name of a fake "ultra-patriotism", behave like modern Hitlers and Mussolinis by promoting nonsense ideologies about... ethnic purity. Such a myth! For God’s sake, how mentally disturbed can be somebody in order to support such nazist-oriented ideas? Why they can’t just accept that Multiculturalism is a reality for everybody? We can - and we must - benefit from the mixture of Cultures.

    I saw the little black boy of the photo and I thought that he can become a far better Greek citizen than the "supremacist Arian" wafflers.

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 13 February 07:05, by xxx

      Sophia

      You obviously know nothing about Greek history, the only refugees Greece has ever taken in were Greek refugees, not Pakistanis, Iraqis, Nigerians etc, while simultaneously the Greeks were expelling Turks, Bulgrads, Slavs and Albanians from our lands. Greece was 98% homogenous up until the 90s by design not accident. You may have some utopian view of who we Greeks are, but the true reality, if you bother to read it, is quite harsh for your modern sensitivities. Ever heard of the Megali Idea, ever read about the Balkan wars...I recommend you do, it may wake you from your progressive slumber.

      Save the hospitality for the tourists, not the unwanted illegals.

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 13 February 12:39, by Vasilis from Canada

      Wow that didnt take long. Invoking Hitler and Mussolini makes you feel smart, right? The mark of a lazy thinker. Smyrnas disaster was remedied by immigration of GREEKS to GREECE as a partial fulufillment of the Megali Idea. And logically, how can the emigration of Greeks to the US and Germany be an instance of Greek hospitality? Did you mean American and German hospitality?

      Greek hospitality is what what happens when Greeks are kind and friendly to their neighbors, they dont become their neighbors. If Greek culture was’nt so conservative and "xenophobic" from the beginning, there would have been no Greekness to preserve or defend. Now what foreign enemies used to do with armies, they now can do with immigration.

      As a proponent of multiculturalism you have to make a choice: Is ethnic preservation a value in the mutlicultural mindeset? Or do you support the artificial dilution of the ethnos? Mulitculturalists will scream bloddy murder if an ethnic minority is forced to suppress itself, yet they expect the host culture to quietly aquiesce and disappear. If you think ethnicity is a myth, then apply that principal to everyone, including the immigrants.

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 15 February 15:45, by Jim Adams

      I’d like tο give my sincere congrats to Nicolas for this inspiring article! Bravo!

      I saw the little black boy of the photo and I thought that he can become a far better Greek citizen than the "supremacist Arian" wafflers.

      Agreed on both. Thank God there are some sane people of Greek descent out there.

      Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 08:36, by Giannis

      Obviously you are a Greek living abroad most likely the US or England. You have no idea on what it is to be Greek. As a cheap shot you are using an American method by involving people like Hitler and Mussolini who our people fought and died against to slander Greeks who are against legalization of immigrants. One day when you study Greek history and culture you will see why many Greeks are against legalization of ILLEGAL immigrants. Just because one has love for its people, culture and wants to preserve it does not make them racist. Learn the difference.

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 12 February 17:36, by Tzon

    Take a glimpse at your utopian future Mr Mottas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 13 February 13:19, by John

      To be greek on must me born by greek parents and also be raised in greece or in a greek family environment if residing outside Greece. To be Greek one must speak greek, be genetically Greek and know and understand Greek history.
      Greece is no the USA which states if you are born in this country you are a citizen, that was created because that was a new world and needed immigration, Greece is the mother country of civilization that stood up to all obstacles and mainted culture, language and religion, whereas surrounding countries lost their culture and gave in to the Ottoman empire and became Muslims so they can live free and enjoy property and money that was taken from Greek Christians. All over the years many tried to conquer Greece and their loud NO!!! to sumbmission is well known to all the world and admired and looked as a model, and that’s why they even make movies about historical battles. I think someone that is not Greek and is born in Greece of course learns the Greek culture but in his mind he is what his/her parents are. I born in Greece and living in the US since I was a kid and even other Greek kids born here still feel Greek and not american, and that’s the real truth, just because someone speaks the language and is born in a country isn’t fully greek. Most immigrants hate Greece and talk bad and complain that there is racism, I would like to know if a large amount of immigrants go to their country what would be the reaction, I’m that the treament would not be so naive and helpful as in Greece, once I asked an albanian if lets say thousands of immigrants went to his country how would you feel, he told me that he wouldn’t like and that the immigrants would be treated very badly and even kille. That’s the difference between Greece and other countries we are naive, ask that old lady that got robbed outside the bank, asked that lady that got rapped, asked this young girl that someone put a knife on her to steal her cell phone, I’m sorry but that’s not Greek culture that is foreign behavior from third world countries and we don’t need this kind of people , we like to feel secure and happey in our mother country which our ancestors gave their blood so we can have a small piece of land that we can live.

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 14 February 06:59, by mat the blip

    the name greek was branded to us by those wonderfull simply holyistic superb contentious people from the roman catholic church which the word greek simply refers to that group of people living over there. I dont agree with that tripe nor name as we should and do call ourselves ELLINES from the land of H Ellada or H Ellas where my father fought for liberty and many of his neighboors were slain. So the question should be areyou born an Ellina or do you become one? The answer is you are one when you hurt for the land or you smile at a beautiful babe or enjoy the food admire the sea and so on and on with ultimately making the gods jealous by being mortal but have the good sense to enjoy life to the fullest even though hard times interfere.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 15 February 08:00, by antonis

    Firstly it doesn’t make sense, to be granting full citizenship to 250,000 migrants, of which many are illegal, when greece is according to the government in its worst economic crisis, and has a steady increase in unempoloyment.

    Theres something fishy here with the Pasok government.

    Secondly, my viewpoint from Australia, is that I would like to go to Greece and see people speaking Greek, eating Greek, church bells ringing in the mornings, national and religious events and celebrations creating the atmosphere that we all love when we are in Greece.

    If greece decides to follow the american(western) way of accepting multitudes of migrants and making them full citizens, then Greece will also have to follow suit in changing current laws and customs to accomodate these migrants, as did the western world.

    Whether we like it or not, Greek culture is actually Christian culture. Our customs are actually Christian customs. Our history for the greater part is Christian and our lands are covered in the blood of forefathers who fought to retain all the above.

    Many might say, that not all greeks are Christian and that they dont even follow the above way of life. are they greek? In my opinion they are simply Greek in blood, but not in culture. Their culture is whatever they are fed through TV radio and any propaganda which is created to sway masses. They are victims of materialism, consumerism, new age thinking, and globalisation.

    Although every Greek has the freedom to be what he wants, it does not mean that that is what it is to be greek. The identity of a nation is formed through history. anything other than that which is temporary, is just fashion, trend and easily corruptable. One person or even a few, cannot change thousands of years of history. Additionally cultures and ethnic identity take hundreds and more years to be formed. Throwing that out the door, for shallow tv culture is not possible, neither logical.

    I would gladly see the migrants in Greece gain full econmic rights, not voting rights as this would grant them the ability to change the culture of the land . And this only as long as it is viable, culturally, demographically, and economically fair on its current citizens. and as long as their culture is a guest culture and does not affect the existing culture...or until they have completely assimilated into the existing and current culture the Greek nation has...without any force as that would be violating human rights.

    When I go to Greece, I want to be in Greece and live Greece as it has been for hundreds of years at least...in the same way when we go to China we like to see and live the chinese way.

    A nation who does have history cannot have a future!

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 15 February 15:16, by Jim Adams

      Secondly, my viewpoint from Australia, is that I would like to go to Greece and see people speaking Greek, eating Greek, church bells ringing in the mornings, national and religious events and celebrations creating the atmosphere that we all love when we are in Greece.

      Yeah, I’m with you brother. Let’s put all inhabitants of Greece behind glass doors and preserve them. That way we can go to Greece once in a while, and spend our tourist dollars in a place where things are exactly the way they were 50 or 100 years ago. What do they call this? A theme park? Good idea!

      Reply to this message

      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 18:41, by John Smith

        One major problem in the core rotten materialistic western world that every human is watching through the glass on the tv is that of the youth dying from drug abuse, sexual diseases and depression(suicide).
        Honest, respectful and virtuous people will soon be required to be put into a theme park in the western world as their populations are quickly diminishing.

        Reply to this message

        • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 23:27, by Jim Adams

          Honest, respectful and virtuous people will soon be required to be put into a theme park in the western world as their populations are quickly diminishing.

          I guess you’re trying to tell us that all Greeks are honest, respectful and virtuous people - all others are scoundrels. Isn’t this kinda like saying "All women are whores, except mom!" ?? Tsk, tsk, tsk... So here you are Oedipus!

          Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 05:42, by GreekPontian

    Hello everyone. What really upsets me is how the politicians in Greece (namely the left wings communist traitors) whine and complain about the "bad" treatment of immigrants. They give more support to the immigrants struggle rather then the Greek struggle. They compare the Greeks that left Greece and immigrated to Canada, the USA, germany Australia, etc. How in God’s name can you compare the Greek immigrants that felt Greece and went to other countries compared to these barbarians that immigrated to Greece......how can you compare the Greek immigrants that filled the universities with teachers and the hospitals with doctors, to these uneducated people.

    Now let me make this clears, I DO beleive that their are SOME immigrants in Greece that are nice people......but, I also beleive that just their existance in our country is hurting the nation even though those immigrants don’t mean any harm. That’s why they got to go back to their countries, or immigrate to a more multicultural society like Canada or U.S.A.

    For those Greeks that blaim the Church for our problems....shame on you, if it wasn’t for the Church and certain patriotic organzinations, then Greece would have been lost by now....the nation wouldn’t be called Greece, it would be called Greeceastan!

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 16 February 11:45, by Nikos Arvanitis

      "how can you compare the Greek immigrants that filled the universities with teachers and the hospitals with doctors, to these uneducated people."

      Our grandfathers that left Greece had PHDs.......in goat herding? The third generation did well, and now immigrants in Greece are already beating the ’native Greeks’ in schools.

      Reply to this message

  • Being a rabid fan of Greekness 16 February 17:56, by George daGreek

    It’s about values that people are concerned about? Those Greek values, right?

    Well, those values have been redifined all along, as people (Greeks and others) live in different eras. Whatever it means today to be Greek is not the same as during the Byzantine times and especially in the Hellenic era.

    Why can’t you—the rabid fans of Greekness—make your choices for yourselves? Allow others to choose for themselves. Probably you’re thinking, "there’s safety in numbers," so you don’t want foreigners or the "traitors within" to dilute the Greekness. Right? Be honest, it’s about exclusion, xenophobia, and clinging to a national identity that’s under attack because modern Greeks’ confidence has eroded.

    Then isolate the country. Expell all "non-Greeks" and don’t allow anyone who has a different culture. For good measure, ban all news, and cultural intrusions in any form. Like Sparta did, like others have done over the centuries. Cling to your definition of Greeks for a while longer.

    Eventually, you will lose what you’re trying to protect, because no nation, no culture has remained unchanged. It either evolves or becomes extinct. The strength of a culture, the currency of ideas & ideals all depend on the confidence (not arrogance) of a dynamic people who ADOPT and ADAPT.

    Some of you here may not like that people choose ideas & values regardless of their origin. Choosing and adopting an idea, value, practice is a smart, sophisticated approach of a modern human.

    In no way, I impune your right to choose for yourself to remain a "traditional Greek"—however you define Greekness. But, just note, the country doesn’t belong to you more than it belongs to those who wish it to get unstuck from the ultranationalist, historically uniformed, and the self-ascribed cultural superiority.

    Reply to this message

    • Being a rabid fan of Greekness 16 February 23:57, by Jim Adams

      But, just note, the country doesn’t belong to you more than it belongs to those who wish it to get unstuck from the ultranationalist, historically uniformed, and the self-ascribed cultural superiority.

      Pssst! Just ask these fellows "How many of you guys are willing to leave the comforts of the multicultural countries you live in and go to Greece to fight for the preservation of the Hellenic race purity?" I don’t think you’ll see many hands raised. "How many of you that profess to be Greek are actually Greek citizens that participated in the functions of the Democracy by exercising you right to vote?" "How many of you pay taxes in Greece?" Oh, yeah? You’ve got brothers and relatives there? Let them decide what’s best for them. To them (our conservative right wing fellows), it’s like a virtual world. Greece is the land of their dreams -a land that has to remain pure, regardless of what the people that live on the land want. What do they (the Greek citizens) know after all? They just live there! Let’s tell them what is best for them, because we’ve seen these horrors with our own eyes (while sitting on our couches watching TV somewhere in the US or Canada, or Australia). We’ll teach them how to become real Greeks! (oops, Hellenes...)

      Reply to this message

      • Being a rabid fan of Greekness 17 February 21:44, by George daGreek

        Of course, it’s about "race purity." Isn’t it? Thank you for being so honest. Most people would not admit this.

        However, notions of race are nothing more than superficial constructs that make people feel special by excluding others. What’s most striking and incredible claim is that blood, DNA, somehow carry certain cultural traits. That being born in a particular race gives the individual some kind of cultural memory, norms, values, etc. This is totally bogus.

        An accident of birth (time & place) means that you will be told who you are. Then you either think for yourself or accept what you’re told. Choice sometimes is an available option. You can choose to be whatever you want, because you can define yourself as such. Of course, the group you might want to join could reject you because you don’t fit the other groups’ racial profile.

        As to who’s a Greek.. would you accept those modern Greeks who live in the country, pay taxes, and vote, to have a contrary opinion to the prevailing popular wisdom here? Or, is it by definition, that anyone who opposes Greekness (as you and the ultra-nationalists perceive it) aren’t real Greeks? I know many modern Greeks who don’t agree with you and have a different vision for the country as well a better understanding of history.

        I’m curious. How would you react if someone told you that you’re not a true Greek because you have betrayed the Hellenic values and culture of the ancients? Starting with the Olympian Gods.... What??!! You revised the ancient Hellenic culture? How dare you?!!!

        Also, do you understand that there is an evolution of all sorts since the first people arrived in Greece? From culture, values, political systems, mixing of races, to language and religion. People in different historical eras have very different definitions of what Greekness is (among other values). Institutions like the modern state, notions of citizenship, patriotism and nationalism have been radically redefined over the centuries. Some of them are rather new (nationhood, patriotism, etc).

        Reply to this message

      • Being a rabid fan of Greekness 17 February 21:50

        Dear Jim Adams...

        I raise my hand. I have left a western country to live in a economically lower ranked, yet richer cultured country called Greece! and no, i wont preserve its culture. But Greece doesn’t need us. It has proven through history that it survives, even under 500 years of islamic oppression. We need Greece to keep in touch with our rich culture and traditions, where ever in the world we may be. that’s why Hellenes visit Greece year after year, if we cannot live there due to other circumstances.
        As for you ’loose’ cultured consumers in the western world. Good luck. You have destroyed the few good things you had many years ago ( which were taken from the Greco-Roman world anyway), and simply want everybody else to crumble with you.
        I’d like to see how you would fair under islamic occupation of 500 years. Oh...all the blonde haired blue eyed islamic arabs, resemble much of the fair western europeans?! Might they be descendents of crusaders?... if you cant beat them join them is a common saying in the west. Well in the Hellenic world we say ΜΟΛΟΝ ΛΑΒΕ. I take it you can only speak one language. sorry for that.

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  • Holier Than Thou.. 19 February 14:08, by Sam Adams

    Emotional responses should be complementary to a person’s evaluation of an issue, not the primary source. I dare say that most people who have strong opinions, as expressed here, base their arguments on myths and selective use of history.

    Notions of Greekness have changed over the years. Would modern Greeks be comfortable in Byzantium? When the newly-minted theocracy rendered anything of the ancient Hellas as not worth preserving?

    The creation of the modern state was the result of wars and of the elites to use ethnic identities to their advantage as well as greater wealth for the elites. Nationhood, nationalism are the products of 18th-19th centuries. All were artificial constructs, like many countries that emerged then. The formation of the modern Greek state was conceived in the West by the intellectuals who wanted to revive the ancient civilization; a extension of the Renaissance.. It was also the attempt of Russia and western powers that wanted to weaken the Ottoman empire.

    The geographical land called Greece had been settled over by a multitude of ethnicities and it was a hotbed of people mixing. Athens was a village with a majority of Arvanites. People’s knowledge of history changed, their affiliations and allegiances also changed, depending on the rulers and historical circumstances.

    Lastly, we should be more specific what exactly we want to preserve, instead of uttering a broad label like Hellenism or Greekness. What are those elements of culture, social and economic values that we want to preserve? I’d reckon that most Greeks would want to get rid all of the negative aspects & attributes that are remnants (and bad influences) from other cultures. Right?...

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  • A simple solution? 19 February 15:01, by George Picoulas

    I think it would help the discussion if every person (especially anyone here) who claims specific values of Greekness on the account of birth (born Greek), should take a simple DNA test.

    Those who claim they have a direct line to ... (as far as they want to go) can verify this through a simple scientific test.

    Then we can see whether Greekness is an acquired (and ever changing) concept or it’s genetic. If the latter, I’d be interested to hear the theories as to why the Greek element in the DNA is more ..powerful than the one from another ethic group. Even more interesting to hear the arguments of those who feel Greek today but their genetic material only goes back a couple generations! Impossible? Let’s find out.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 20 February 08:02, by cons

    That dark boy in the photo is a Greek. How can anyone tell a child that was born or educated in Greece, that they are not Greek because of DNA or anything else? What kind of heart does it take for someone to say such a despicable thing to a child?

    Greece cannot cut itself off from the world. You cannot isolate Greece! Multiculturalism may not be to everyone’s liking, but that is the future-like it or not. The world is overpopulated and people are travelling more and more.

    The Greeks are a mixed people already. The Byzantines were mixed. The Greek people today are as Greek as Pericles was. I welcome Asian Greeks, African Greeks, even Turkish Greeks.
    A Greek is both someone either born in Greece or brought up as a Greek. Both are true.

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 22 February 23:28, by Plethon

      "That dark boy in the photo is a Greek."

      No he is not. Objectively, he is a boy of African descent dressed like a Greek. If there was a picture of a boy of Greek descent dressed like Shaka Zulu, would blacks regard the boy a Sub-Saharan African? No.

      "How can anyone tell a child that was born or educated in Greece, that they are not Greek because of DNA or anything else?"

      Simple. You tell them that their parents weren’t Greeks.

      "What kind of heart does it take for someone to say such a despicable thing to a child?"

      An honest heart. Yet, honesty is considered "despicable" since it doesn’t serve certain "multicultural" interests.

      "Greece cannot cut itself off from the world. You cannot isolate Greece!"

      You confuse ethno-cultural preservation with isolation. There is a difference.

      "Multiculturalism may not be to everyone’s liking, but that is the future-like it or not."

      It’s not the future, because Third World countries care little about multiculturalism and only use it as a means to financially exploit the West. Apparently, Greek people are the only ones smart enough to see multiculturalism for what it really is: national suicide.

      "The world is overpopulated and people are travelling more and more."

      What makes you think that overpopulation has anything to do with increased travel? If anything, the Eurocrats in Brussels seem happy with deliberately importing thousands of non-Europeans, which is no wonder then that "people are travelling more and more"...to Europe that is.

      "The Greeks are a mixed people already. The Byzantines were mixed."

      Could you please drop the "kumbayah" statements and provide us with some biological evidence?

      "The Greek people today are as Greek as Pericles was."

      About the only intelligent statement you’ve made so far.

      "I welcome Asian Greeks, African Greeks, even Turkish Greeks."

      More "kumbayah" statements.

      "A Greek is both someone either born in Greece or brought up as a Greek. Both are true."

      No. A Greek is someone who is born a Greek and after being born a Greek is raised to never take his/her heritage for granted.

      Ciao.

      Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 22 February 20:22, by Alexios Strategopoulos

    Yet another "brilliant" article by Nicholas Mottas whose out-of-context citation of one line from Isocrates’s Panegyricus somehow justifies altering Greek Nationality Law from jus sanguinis to jus soli. That the notion of "Greekness" is based solely on "Greek education" stems from the narrow interpretation of the Panegyricus by members of the Second Sophistic movement. Isocrates himself believed in a natural dichotomy between "Hellenes" and "barbarians". As an Athenian orator whose speeches were blatantly pro-Athenian , he believed that the Athenians were superior to other Hellenic tribes due to their "autochthony" and their Hellenic "blood purity". His mentioning of "Hellenic education" is not in reference towards assimilating barbarians, but rather in reference to the superiority of Athenian civilization. Ancestor worship and notions of pedigree were not unusual in the ancient Greek world and were in fact quite common even during the Hellenistic and Roman periods. Polemon of Laodiceia, for example, wrote about the descent of the Hellenes and how the Greeks are physically distinct from educated barbarians such as Favorinus of Arles, a "Hellenized" Celt. Even Emperor Hadrian entertained notions of Greekness based on descent through his establishment of the Panhellenion in 131/132 AD (the Panhellenic Games were held in 137 AD).

    Hellenism in the ancient world involves a variety of dynamics, descent being one of them.

    The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity - page 504:

    "Autochthony, being an Athenian idea and represented in many Athenian texts, is likely to have influenced a broad public of readers, wherever Greek literature was read."

    As for Byzantium, here’s a quote from Feliks Gross:

    Citizenship and Ethnicity: The Growth and Development of a Democratic Multiethnic Institution - page 45:

    "After the Fall of Rome, the Roman Empire continued in Byzantium. Inhabitants of Byzantium were Roman citizens, they practiced—and greatly advanced—Roman law. However, they spoke Greek and were of Greek ancestry, what we would call today ’Greek ethnicity,’ belonging later to the Eastern Greek church. But they called themselves Roman and were Roman citizens."

    Of course, the Greeks of Byzantium also called themselves "Graikoi" (except for the politicians prior to the Fourth Crusade). According to Paul Magdalino:

    Tradition and Transformation in Medieval Byzantium - page 10:

    "And in all their writings concerning the Roman church, the Byzantines habitually described themselves as Graikoi in order to avoid confusion."

    Why would the Byzantines use a Greek ethnonym (mentioned in works by Aristotle, popularized by the Romans of Italy, and used by the early Christian Greeks in Late Antiquity) if they were supposedly against notions of descent? Why would they also make ethnic distinctions even if they persuaded members of foreign groups to support their empire? Could it be that Byzantium was (*gasp*) a Christian Greek civilization? According to Adrian Hastings:

    The Construction of Nationhood: Ethnicity, Religion, and Nationalism - page 202:

    "As Christianity split into a diversity of ecclesiastical streams, the dualism implicit within its political agenda – nation-forming on the one side, universalism on the other - was further accentuated. The classical eastern orthodox form stressing the power of the emperor was in principle universalist enough in its vision of Constantinople as the ’New Rome’, but in practice Byzantium became a rather thoroughly Greek empire, alienating non-Greeks in Egypt, Syria or the west."

    I noticed that a number of leftist-minded commentators appear to enjoy calling pro-descent Greeks "racists" without realizing that they themselves are also "racists" for using Fallmerayer-based "mongrelization" arguments to politically justify a clearly anti-Greek policy. In other words, leftists are hypocrites who use racially-charged pejoratives in order to demonize anything that does not coincide with their attempts at establishing a purely egalitarian "dictatorship of the proletariat" (in reality, an oppressive anti-worker dystopia).

    The "mongrelization" arguments established by a dead 19th century pro-Ottoman "historian" have been refuted time and again. It’s getting old.

    "Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis"

    http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/arti...

    "Racial Type of the Ancient Hellenes"

    http://dienekes.50webs.com/arp/arti...

    In the words of physical anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel: "racial continuity in Greece is striking." So where is all this talk about Slavs and Albanians "bastardizing" the Greeks coming from? One man: Jakob Fallmerayer.

    The Greeks are a living genos and that simple reality bothers some people. Who cares what a bunch of politicized pseudo-intellectuals with Hellenophobic proclivities say. To become a Greek, you must first be born a Greek.

    Alexios Strategopoulos

    P.S. I suggest that commentators cease with the "Greek Metahistories" bullshit regarding the Arvanites. The Arvanites were never Albanians since they’ve been self-identifying as Greeks (and not just "Greek Orthodox") for centuries despite their speaking Greek and Arvanitika. Moreover, "scholars" that tend to conflate the Arvanites with the Albanians usually adhere to the linguistically deterministic parameters of "Albanianness" established by the Rilindja of 1912. And for the record, Trudgill actually states that around 140,000 Arvanites were in Attica and Boeotia (out of a total Greek population of 4-5 million according to the Atlas of World Population History by Colin McEvedy and Richard Jones). As for the Slavs, please refrain from believing everything you read in the highly exaggerated Ecclesiastical History of John "the persecuted Monophysite with an axe to grind" and the ecclesiastically biased "let’s make Patras look good on paper" Chronicle of Monemvasia . Thank you.

    Reply to this message

    • Please DEFINE GREEKNESS [I reserve my right to disagree] 23 February 19:40, by George Picoulas

      You cite lots of references but you use them in an incoherent fashion, and to make irrelevant connections. Most of us who discuss the issue here are not pro-Ottoman, Falmerayer’s followers, nor agents of anti-Hellenic foreign interests! [They may be others who don’t want Greece to become what it used to be... you’ve got to watch out for them]

      Tell me, those who claim special qualities on the account of race, they are... (what exactly?) Those who point this out, you say, are ..racists, because they may share a view with someone else who can be racist, a fanatic, whatever! Illogical.

      Yes, the ancient Hellenes (including Athenians) believed the barbarians weren’t as good as themselves because of race and of culture. I hoped that modern humans could trascend the unscientific notion that race makes a person superior or inferior—intellectually, emotionally, etc.

      A child is born in Greece to Greek parents. Take this baby away and raise it in another culture and what do you have? Oh, his DNA, his race will make him feel, behave, and think as a Greek! Seriously?!

      Greekness has been redefined several times over the centuries. You, no one, has a better claim to define myself than I. This is exactly what this argument revolves around. The super-Greeks claim Greekness and if anyone doesn’t fit that definition, he’s out!

      I dare those super-Greeks to define Greekness. They’ll have to find certain values, attributes, culture, that have remained constant. Go ahead. Find something that is central to the present Greek identity and hasn’t changed since antiquity. Something that’s unique to Greekness.

      Just for the sake of argument... If I’m not a Greek Orthodox, but born in Greece and my lineage goes back for many generations... Am I Greek? I can take this further... at which point someone isn’t Greek? Or, can I be Greek without feeling or behaving like most Greeks today?

      A vague notion of Greekness may serve to agitate the crowds, but what is it exactly? I really want to know, what exactly Greekness is.

      Further, at which convenient point in history do you begin your claims?... [this is very important]

      Maybe it serves your sanity to believe whatever you want—it’s your right. And, you don’t have to learn about the mixing of the people if that bothers you because you prefer a "pure blood" Greekness. People have changed allegiances and have adopted new identities depending on the ruling masters and opportunities for advancement. Some gave up their Greekness some other chose to become Greek, especially after the formation of the modern Greek state (after the revolution).

      For goodness sake, even Greek names changed!

      For the life of me, I don’t understand why it is so important to claim a direct lineage?! What does it prove? Do you want a big bravo for what others did?

      I think this mentality of claiming greatness not for something you’ve done recently but for something others did long ago, ill serves modern Greece and may have worked as an impediment to progress. The inevitable comparison of modern Greeks to their ancestors isn’t very flattering either.

      I tried to claim greatness and status for myself on the account of my great grandfather’s winning of a Noble prize, but I was offended when others weren’t impressed. They asked me what I had done. Of course, I realize they’re acting on behalf of the enemies of Greece, and they must be racists too.

      Yes, a DNA test would be helpful indeed. Yet, I doubt that the purists really want to know. They feel the truth. Right?...

      Reply to this message

      • "You cite lots of references but you use them in an incoherent fashion, and to make irrelevant connections..."

        Translation: I have dismissed Alexios’s references, because I’m allergic to anything resembling serious evidence.

        "Tell me, those who claim special qualities on the account of race, they are... (what exactly?) Those who point this out, you say, are ..racists, because they may share a view with someone else who can be racist, a fanatic, whatever! Illogical."

        Translation: I have high levels of cognitive dissonance and believe that the only reason racism is illogical is because only notions of anti-racism make sense.

        "Yes, the ancient Hellenes (including Athenians) believed the barbarians weren’t as good as themselves because of race and of culture. I hoped that modern humans could trascend the unscientific notion that race makes a person superior or inferior—intellectually, emotionally, etc."

        Translation: I want to sacrifice my Greek heritage on the altar of "[post]modern egalitarianism" in order to avoid being called a "racist" or a "fascist". In short, I’m scared to be Greek.

        "A child is born in Greece to Greek parents. Take this baby away and raise it in another culture and what do you have? Oh, his DNA, his race will make him feel, behave, and think as a Greek! Seriously?!"

        Translation: In the nature vs. nurture debate, I condemn those who fully support nature without realizing that nature and nurture are intertwined forces. I don’t want to believe that a Greek is someone who is born a Greek and is raised by his/her Greek parents.

        "Greekness has been redefined several times over the centuries..."

        Translation: I have no evidence to show how Greekness has been redefined, but feel that Greekness should be redefined anyway. Greeks who possess a sense of ethnic exceptionalism are evil.

        "I dare those super-Greeks to define Greekness..."

        Translation: I have totally ignored Alexios’s references, and have no desire to substantiate my own pompous declaration. I am too lethargic to care about objective truth and the burden of proof should go to the people I am mocking.

        "Just for the sake of argument... If I’m not a Greek Orthodox, but born in Greece and my lineage goes back for many generations... Am I Greek? I can take this further... at which point someone isn’t Greek? Or, can I be Greek without feeling or behaving like most Greeks today?"

        Translation: Sophisms masquerading as legitimate questions are a great way to avoid providing evidence or actually answering my own questions.

        "A vague notion of Greekness may serve to agitate the crowds, but what is it exactly? I really want to know, what exactly Greekness is."

        Translation: I still continue to ignore Alexios’s references, which show how the Greeks identified themselves throughout their own history. My "ignorance" regarding Greekness is in fact based on my wanting Greekness to be so malleable that anyone can devalue its uniqueness without consequence.

        "Further, at which convenient point in history do you begin your claims?... [this is very important]"

        Translation: I demand that the Greeks tell us exactly when in history they started calling themselves Greeks so that I can decide if their heritage deserves to be preserved. Even so, Greeks are only allowed to have a history if they accept deconstructionist methodologies of analysis.

        "Maybe it serves your sanity to believe whatever you want—it’s your right. And, you don’t have to learn about the mixing of the people if that bothers you because you prefer a "pure blood" Greekness. People have changed allegiances and have adopted new identities depending on the ruling masters and opportunities for advancement. Some gave up their Greekness some other chose to become Greek, especially after the formation of the modern Greek state (after the revolution)."

        Translation: I really hate to have to present sources and would rather make arguments that even if true would have little bearing on those Greeks who preserved their heritage and survived centuries of war, plague, famine, and oppression.

        "For goodness sake, even Greek names changed!"

        Translation: I continue to ignore Alexios’s references, which show that the Greeks called themselves by different names and still managed to know that they were identifying themselves.

        "For the life of me, I don’t understand why it is so important to claim a direct lineage?! What does it prove? Do you want a big bravo for what others did?"

        Translation: I am ashamed of my Greek parentage and have no respect for any of the achievements and sacrifices of my ancestors.

        "I think this mentality of claiming greatness not for something you’ve done recently but for something others did long ago, ill serves modern Greece and may have worked as an impediment to progress. The inevitable comparison of modern Greeks to their ancestors isn’t very flattering either."

        Translation: Pride in one’s Greek heritage is a sin and an obstruction to the glorious forces of "globalized egalitarian multiculturalism".

        "I tried to claim greatness and status for myself on the account of my great grandfather’s winning of a Noble prize, but I was offended when others weren’t impressed. They asked me what I had done. Of course, I realize they’re acting on behalf of the enemies of Greece, and they must be racists too."

        Translation: I am not inspired by the achievements of my ancestors, therefore I cannot do anything that may surpass them.

        "Yes, a DNA test would be helpful indeed. Yet, I doubt that the purists really want to know. They feel the truth. Right?..."

        Translation: I still ignore Alexios’s references two of which provide genetic studies on Greek populations. I think that DNA studies are valid only if the results coincide with my wanting Greekness to confirm my belief in globalized multicultural models of identity.

        Ciao.

        Reply to this message

        • Lost in Translation! 24 February 23:58, by George Picoulas

          It’s not about listing sources. You start from this: Greekness is only by birth, through race; multi-whatever is undesirable; cosmopolitanism, universal values are not worthy; Greeks who aren’t fanatical Greeks should be ashamed, uninspired, sinful , etc.

          1. I don’t feel ashamed. I’m grateful that I’ve learned the ideas, culture, history, of Hellenism. I’m not governed by sin, original or otherwise. Unfortunately some replies come back to me in the form of personal attacks—like yours, judging my mental and emotional state!

          2. Greekness needs to be defined, not by referencing a source but by those who claim it. Greekness has changed over the centuries, no constant value.

          Reply to this message

          • Lost in Translation! 25 February 00:05, by George Picoulas

            The Byzantines defined themselves differently in fundamental ways not in labels only. The Greek gods were replaced by xtianity. If this isn’t a change of an important element of Greekness, I don’t know what is. Same for elements of culture, art, philosophy, the notions of purpose of life, and the human-god relationship. Not to mention the political changes, from the Athenian democracy to a theocracy, absolutism, and ascribed status.

            3.I can be inspired by choice, not determined by birth.

            Reply to this message

            • Lost in Translation! 25 February 00:10, by George Picoulas

              4. Obviously, it’s important to claim direct, unadulterated and unbroken lineage. I get it. Credible scholarship shows that the geographical region of Greece has been settled by many groups. Many mixed, it happened everywhere. Identities changed. The Akrites an example of ethnic mixing. Where they Greek?

              The Janissary? They included Greek xtian boys; they were converted and trained to serve the Ottoman Sultan. How come their Greekness didn’t prevail? Did they participate in the siege and conquest of Byzantium? What happened to the Greek colonies all over the Mediterranean? Do their descendants feel Greek today?

              Are you or are you not claiming that race (being born into it) gives a group special characteristics unique to this group and not obtainable by others? Exclusion on the account of race.

              If you not saying this, then Greekness can be obtained, can be amended, and has an open membership regardless of place and time of birth of the individual. It is very simple.

              Reply to this message

              • Lost in Translation! 25 February 11:47, by Plethon

                "...Credible scholarship shows that the geographical region of Greece has been settled by many groups..."

                Scholarship? More like lousy sophisms. As for the Akritai, they were Byzantine Greek border warriors; the story of Digenes symbolizes the Akritai being "born" to protect Byzantium’s borders.

                "The Janissary?...What happened to the Greek colonies...?..."

                The devshirme was not well accepted by the Greek population (i.e. Naousa). Also, many Janissaries rebelled against the sultan. As for the Greek colonies, some of them survived and others didn’t.

                "...Greekness can be obtained...amended...has an open membership..."

                The "solution" you provide is based on naive and hypocritical sophisms rather than on anything scholarly. You feel that Greekness should be "amended" so that the vast barbarian hordes in Greece can be "bureaucratically Hellenized". You are trying too hard to pass as some anti-racist "voice of reason".

                Reply to this message

                • Lost in Translation! 25 February 23:03, by George Picoulas

                  I prefer the original definition, when the Hellenes came up with the word SOPHISM .

                  “In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a group of teachers of philosophy and rhetoric.

                  The term sophism originated from Greek sophistēs, meaning "wise-ist", one who "does" wisdom, one who makes a business out of wisdom (sophós means "wise man").”

                  Ah, the Digenis Akritas ! And, the Janissary ! I was taught the official version. Unfortunately, this is how most super Greeks "know" history. Fortunately, there’s a plethora of good books about these topics (and, no, there are not all written by Greek-hating authors... just sayin’)

                  Reply to this message

                  • Lost in Translation! 26 February 16:53, by Plethon

                    "I prefer the original definition, when the Hellenes came up with the word SOPHISM..."

                    How pompous of you to assume you’re wise when in fact you’ve been making "specious arguments used for deceiving people".

                    "Ah, the Digenis Akritas! And, the Janissary! I was taught the official version. Unfortunately, this is how most super Greeks "know" history. Fortunately, there’s a plethora of good books about these topics (and, no, there are not all written by Greek-hating authors... just sayin’)"

                    In other words, you have no sources and are just resorting to "super-Greeks" name calling. Got it.

                    Reply to this message

            • Lost in Translation! 25 February 11:12, by Plethon

              "The Byzantines defined themselves differently in fundamental ways not in labels only..."

              Your level of ignorance astounds me. You don’t even know that Christianity was already Hellenized by the early Byzantine period and that the culture of the Christian Greeks was derived mainly from the culture of the pagan Greeks. You also don’t realize that the Byzantine Greeks preserved the classical tradition in a way that’s borderline obsessive. The political changes you mention in Greece really didn’t stop the Greeks from influencing the Roman Empire in other ways (i.e. civilization).

              "3.I can be inspired by choice, not determined by birth."

              And yet you cannot choose your biological parents.

              Reply to this message

              • Adopting non-Greek values 25 February 23:11, by George Picoulas

                At last, we agree on something!!! That Greeks "Hellenized" xtianity! They adopted non-Greek (but Jewish) values and made them their own!

                Now, think, xtianity being opposite of Hellenic values, art, nature of man, the universe, culture, politics, etc, etc.. was adopted! But, if this can be done, then admittedly revisions can occur, and values can change! Oh, my...

                If such a momentous change is adopted, why can’t other smaller changes take place over the course of many centuries?

                Do I need sources for these 2 points I’m making here?

                Reply to this message

                • Adopting non-Greek values 26 February 16:42, by Plethon

                  "...That Greeks "Hellenized" xtianity! They adopted non-Greek...values and made them their own!"

                  Wrong. The Hellenization of Christianity was a process where Greek values were incorporated into a non-Greek system. Greeks refused to adopt Judaism since it was foreign to them.

                  "Now, think, xtianity being opposite of Hellenic values...was adopted! But, if this can be done, then admittedly revisions can occur, and values can change!..."

                  Wrong. The differences between Christian Hellenism and pagan Hellenism were not vast. Monotheism, in fact, was an understood concept established in the 6th century BC (read The Religious Quest as a Preparation for Christianity by Demetris Constantelos).

                  "If such a momentous change is adopted, why can’t other smaller changes take place over the course of many centuries?"

                  Because you figure that the formation of Christian Hellenism is enough to justify promoting a pro-barbarian policy of the PASOK party.

                  "Do I need sources...?"

                  Yes.

                  Reply to this message

          • Lost in Translation! 25 February 11:03, by Plethon

            "It’s not about listing sources..."

            You’re only saying this because you have no sources to counter the references Alexios provided.

            "...I’m grateful that I’ve learned the ideas, culture, history, of Hellenism...some replies come back to me in the form of personal attacks—like yours, judging my mental and emotional state!"

            And you think that your consistent calling of the Hellenic people "super-Greeks" is not insulting? You don’t realize that you use the word as a watered-down form of the term Ubermench , implying that the Greeks are Nazis when they fought against the Germans. Your consistent hypocrisy is what compelled me to judge your "mental your emotional state".

            "Greekness needs to be defined...Greekness has changed over the centuries, no constant value."

            First, you say that you are "grateful" to have learned the ideas, culture and history of "Hellenism" and then you say that Greekness has "no constant values" (meaning no values at all). A clear hypocrisy.

            Reply to this message

            • Lost in Translation! 25 February 22:43, by George Picoulas

              Sources are important as their evaluation is. When simple logic is absent, no sources help. I had similar views with the majority here. Then I studied, learned, and therefore I revised.

              You’re bastardizing my statements & make illogical connections, like comparing my “super Greeks” label to Nazis.. and, that those Greeks couldn’t be Nazis because they fought the Germans! In just one single statement, you make 2 violations. First, again, your translation is wrong. “Super Greeks” meant to describe people like you—unreasonable, uninformed, not open to any new evidence or logic that may contradict their preconceived notions.

              Second, what a ridiculous thing to say that I’m implying the Greeks are Nazis! And, equally illogical to say that because one fights another they can’t have similar views. But, this is the standard of your arguments throughout your posts here.

              Ideals, ideas, and values do provide meaning to our lives, even if they change over time .

              Reply to this message

              • Lost in Translation! 26 February 16:46, by Plethon

                "...When simple logic is absent, no sources help. I had similar views with the majority here. Then I studied, learned, and therefore I revised."

                You’re only saying this because you have no sources.

                "You’re bastardizing my statements & make illogical connections, like comparing my “super Greeks” label to Nazis.. and, that those Greeks couldn’t be Nazis because they fought the Germans!"

                Don’t lie just because I figured you out.

                "Second, what a ridiculous thing to say that I’m implying the Greeks are Nazis! And, equally illogical to say that because one fights another they can’t have similar views. But, this is the standard of your arguments throughout your posts here."

                You’re still lying because I figured you out.

                "Ideals, ideas, and values do provide meaning to our lives, even if they change over time."

                If I recall correctly, you said Hellenism has "no constant values" meaning that it has no values at all. You have no consistency in what you are saying.

                Reply to this message

  • Are we confusing citizenship in the Emglish language with Ithagenia in the Greek langauge?
    I believe granting someone citizenship in the sence of Canada, the US or Australia granting citizenships is NOT the same as Greece granting Ithagenia (ethnicity)
    I would be totally against granting Ithagenia as you either have Greek blood or you don’t.
    So lets not confuse the public by just saying oh the Greeks are racists and what not.
    WE DO NOT WANT ANYONE THAT DOES NOT HAVE GREEK BLOOD to be granted Ethnicity, plain and simple.... give them Greek citizenship if and when they meet the criteria, but NEVER ITHAGENIA and if that is not enough for them, let them go to Canada or the US, they will be happy to have them.
    And if some people do not understand the difference they sgould keep their mouths shut and not mislead the public.

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 24 February 04:27, by 300 Spartans

    Hellenes have Hellenic lineage - our ancestors are Greek - citizenship is nothing more than a permit to live in the country ... end of story... .
    Unlike America, Australia and Canada,( where multiculturalsim is the new method for the "humane" aquisition of slaves to come and help build a nation for its conquerors - because lets face it most of the new "citizens" are only there to do the jobs the locals dont want to.. ) Hellas was not built on the crushing removal of indigenous population and subsequent colonization of those peoples lands -... Greece is the birthplace of Europe, the home of civiliztion and culture... a nation which since as far back as 3000bc has been Hellenic.. WE survived all that came to destroy, change or conquer us..
    you can only become Greek by being born to Greek parents, who in turn were born to Greek parents etc.. Its in the genes, the culture and identity has bee passed down by our familes for over 4 millenia.. anyone not agreeing with this concept is either not Greek or does not understand the ramifications for the world if it loses the lineage and culture Greece has maintained over the many centuries..

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 24 February 10:04, by Ioannis

    Some of you speak as if the Greek identity or any other for that matter has no value whatsoever. Of course Greeks have absorbed others over the millenia and many Greeks chose other allegiances. However there has been a constant Hellenic consciousness that has existed for centuries.

    I dont subscribe to the "pure" DNA argument, however a direct link with the ancients exists in our DNA with the DNA of others added over the centuries. To argue that modern Greeks have zero DNA link to the ancients is false and not credible.

    I do, however subscribe to the notion of a Hellenic mentality and consciousness that has been "CONSTANT" since the ancient times. Of course that consciouness has evolved in many ways, but it was a gradual evolution from "WITHIN".

    The notion that Greece will not progress unless it lets in millions of non-Greeks is simplistic and false. Greeks have always evolved with the times and have had a major impact on European and world history, both in ancient times and in the middle ages as the Byzantines right up to the modern day.

    The difference with newcomers being absorbed in the past and newcomers now is first, the numbers in the past were not significant enough to alter anything and those people simply assimilated. Or were later ethnically cleansed to purify Greece in the modern age...know your history.

    Second...today newcomers are coming in vast numbers and threaten to absorb the local Greek population. They will also not assimilate into the Hellenic conscious but instead will want to impose their values and ethics onto the local Greeks. The evidence of this is very clear in Canada, Australia etc.

    Basically, Greece with a small population that is shrinking will become extinct under multiculturalism and in 100 years you will not have a continued evolution of Hellenism but a complete erosion of it, replaced by a new society of who knows what...but it won’t be Hellenic.

    Think about hiring quotas denying Greeks jobs in their own country, or having to say Kales Apokries instead of Kala Xristougenna to avoid offending newcomers, already the leftist idiots want to teach immigrant kids their parents language in Greek schools...once it starts it does not end!

    What’s so great about multiculturalism anyway...People stick to themselves, dont trust each other, dont intermingle for the most part and basically dislike each other. No wonder the only things people in Canada, the US, Australia value is material, because there is nothing visceral for them to value anymore...they are empty inside, devoid of any sense of history or belonging.

    Ever wonder what would happen in Canada, US, Australia and any other multcultural society when and if the money runs out...YUGOSLAVIA CIRCA 1990s...thats what!

    Make no mistake, Greece with 11 million people, already 1 million who are not Greek, low birth rate and a land mass of roughly 132 000km2 will not be Hellenic in 100 years if the immigration floodgates open in the way they are in Canada, Australia etc.

    Canada by the way is 9.9 Million km2 in land mass, 75 times bigger than Greece, for those who require some context which is obviously lacking from the proponents on the left. Canada has the room, Greece does not.

    I for one will die for Hellenism, I wonder if that "AFRICAN" wearing a Greek costume would when he grows up??? hmmmmmmmmm

    I don’t think Mottas would, that’s for sure.

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 28 February 18:16, by Gayreekus Karaturkos

      Make no mistake, Greece with 11 million people, already 1 million who are not Greek, low birth rate and a land mass of roughly 132 000km2 will not be Hellenic in 100 years if the immigration floodgates open in the way they are in Canada, Australia etc.

      I agree and I LOVE it. That’s payback for trying to break up your neighbors with ’hellenization’ and ethnocide of the Vlachs, Albanian Arvanites and Slavs. Ony Turks you got 1.5 Million in 1923. Soon Albanian schools will open to teach the kids Albanian and they will in 20-30 years rule you, like we did in Turk and after independence.

      You are NOT hellene, you are Orthodox, the opposite of an open minded hellene. Greece will die like Armenia

      Reply to this message

      • Are you born or do you become Greek? 1 March 09:23, by Plethon

        "...That’s payback for trying to break up your neighbors with ’hellenization’ and ethnocide of the Vlachs, Albanian Arvanites and Slavs...Soon Albanian schools will open to teach the kids Albanian and they will in 20-30 years rule you, like we did in Turk and after independence."

        Ethnocide? So, the bi-lingual Greeks who knew how to speak Vlach, Albanian, and Slavic were all "non-Greek ethnic groups" (in your dreams). And your pro-Albanian stance is obvious even though you’re unaware of the fact that Greeks are resisting en-masse against the barbarians. Chances are, the majority of non-Greeks will be thrown out of Greece whether you like it or not.

        "You are NOT hellene, you are Orthodox, the opposite of an open minded hellene. Greece will die like Armenia"

        What do you know about Christian Hellenism? Nothing. And Greece won’t die as long as there are millions of Greeks resisting people like you. So good luck with your anti-Greek death fetish.

        Reply to this message

  • No personal attacks! 25 February 11:51, by Lazarus Sismanis

    Everybody loves a heated discussion. But when things turn into personal attacks and insults, instead of attacking somebody’s ideas and arguments, then it’s time to end the conversation. From this point and on, any posting that contains a trace of personal attack will be removed. Let’s stick to a civilized conversation, shall we?

    Better yet, why don’t we move the conversation to the forums — no moderating of postings there...
    — Site Administrator

    Reply to this message

  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 28 February 18:30, by Gayreekus Karaturkos

    The Greek flag has a cross on it for a reason.

    Yeah, the reason is that is was copied from the East India Trading company. Identical, just replaced the red color with blue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B... . You arvanitoturkovlach orthodox are so brainwashed you don’t even know your history.

    If you were so brave and hellene, why did Arvanites and Vlachs have to liberate you?

    Reply to this message

    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 1 March 09:48, by Plethon

      "...the reason is that is was copied from the East India Trading company. Identical, just replaced the red color with blue...You arvanitoturkovlach orthodox are so brainwashed..."

      Translation: I’m deliberately ignoring the history of Greek vexillology ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o... ) where a number of Greek flags from as early as the 1430’s have crosses in them. My bombastic declaration of regarding Greeks as "brainwashed" is rooted in my hatred of Hellenism.

      "If you were so brave and hellene, why did Arvanites and Vlachs have to liberate you?"

      Translation: I falsely regard the Arvanites and Vlachs as separate ethnic groups when in reality both groups self-identified consistently as Greeks. I am also too ignorant to understand the complexity of the Greek War of Independence and am dependent on extremely reductionist arguments masquerading as "truth".

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 8 March 04:34, by Niv

    Gayreekus Karaturkos "You are NOT hellene, you are Orthodox, the opposite of an open minded hellene. Greece will die like Armenia"

    Thank you Karaturkos, your statements should be what every Greek who defends this ill advised political movement should consider.

    Whether your intentions are good doesn’t matter, the result can clearly be seen by those who hate us, and as such you are acting as the instrument of destruction for our enemies.

    Greece is not a multi-cultural society, if Greece is to exist and not become another Islamic waste land then she must maintain the current citizenship laws that are in place.

    Anyone wishing to alter the demographics of a nation should moveto the UK, I understand the queen is building a mosque in Buckingham Palace to accomodate the muslim staff. I guess Richard the Lion heart must be spinning in his grave, On that note I’d like to do a gyroscopic test on Athanassios Diakos today as well, if he’s not spinning he will be soon.

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 9 March 17:16, by Tzon

    Another glimpse into the future if Greece pursuers multiculturalism.

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010...

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    • Are you born or do you become Greek? 1 April 10:17, by Nika Lacatus

      Hi,

      The north part of Greece called Macedonian 99 per cent are Macedonians and the rest mixed ethnical. The south part of Greece is mixed; the new immigrants, the 2nd generation immigrants born in Greece and all immigrants still coming from Asia, Africa etec., If you do the census in Greece but not by the Greek goverments you will be shock to see how the numbers of ’Greeks citizenship’ are in Greece.

      Thank you

      Nika

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  • Are you born or do you become Greek? 3 April 01:25, by MEGAS

    Forward to the year 2050...Greeks are in the minority...Orthodoxy is terminated...The official religion is ’humanism’ whatever that is. Greece is represented in world basketball by 90% blacks from Africa & when the national anthem plays it doesn’t mean anything to them. Neither does March 25th or any other important date in Greek history. I don’t like this future Greek world. Greek DNA is not purely traced back to the ancients 100% but it doesn’t mean we don’t have some of that same blood of the philosophers and of the proto Christians..whether it be 70% or 45% of that blood flow...we still have something in us that distinguishes us from other indentities. Globalization & the EU wants to change that...& they’re on the right track. Greece as we knew it isn’t a sovereign nation. We have to do whatever it takes to keep Greece Greek. Immigration policy is more important than we think.

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